Comments on: Guenon, Maritain, Thomism

By: kadambari

kadambari — Thu, 30 Dec 2010 04:16:07 +0000

Perennial,
“I also agree with you that the Muslim influence on both Western and Indian history is overstated. Only the minimal aspects of Islam influenced the Mughal court, and it certainly had little influence on India.”

At least you see this unlike most Westerners. Islam brought in thug culture in Northern India, the pesantry was denuded and completely broken by over taxation, and a few members of the Muslim court controlled most of the wealth and poverty in India really begins from this time, most people do not understand Indian history deep enough and think caste is the source of all India’s problems. Many of the bad things found amongst Hindus had to do with Islamic invasions, for example, in Kashmir, when the Muslims took over, people would marry off girls at a young age so they would not be abducted. Even Sati was mostly common among the aristocracy only, such as when a King lost his kingdom, the wife would end her life, but became prevalent even among ordinary folk after the invasions…I mean was it not courageous to jump in the fire rather than be slaves in a harem?

One just has to read the biography of people like Babar and see he makes Saddam Hussain appear mild by comparison…

Actually Hindus were so utterly devasted in Northern India, even today the thuggish culture of the North till this day comes to a large extent from these people…The poorest places in India such as UP and Bihar were ravaged the most…
Westerners see they built palaces (with native craftsmen to do the building and design of course) and gardens and they recited some poetry in the court and think they had culture!

By: kadambari

kadambari — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 20:04:32 +0000

Perennial,
Also I would like to add that a result of living under foreign domination whether it be Islam or colonialism, has made many Indians lose their sense of generosity and sense of fellow feeling for more unfortunate people amidst their midst. Living under others for a long time creates a lot of mean mindedness and selfishness which you see quite a bit over there. But there are a lot of good people as well, there has always been, and there always will be. It takes a generation or two to change people to rid them of the bad qualities that have arisen as a result of being under foreign domination…

By: kadambari

kadambari — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 19:09:41 +0000

Perennial,
When someone like Nikki Haley runs for Governor, people still doubt that she is a Christian, and put forth all sorts of questions to her, and rightly so, as the electorate wants to know about a person before voting. In India the Gandhi family have never had do disclose their religious sympathies, or any of their private details such as their educational qualifications and so on, what exactly is it they follow in terms of religion, do you not think an electorate has the right to know, before they cast their votes? This is what I am saying. In America, political candidates are required to disclose these things if they are not clear to people and if the electorate has questions about these things. In India, that is not so. So India is hardly a democracy in terms of transparency. A recent article published in the Hindu, a leftist paper, a few days ago, reported an American think tank claims that the Indian State is more corrupt than corporate India. This is something we have known all along. One party has mostly made laws for India since independence, and I think India’s woes mostly stem from this party and its misguided policies. I am always surprised by how the foreign press never says anything against the Congress government however corrupt, so the media is mostly bogus.
In India, the fact is upper castes are unlikely to convert to Christianity, as they will have no need to convert. So in places like Himanchal, the missionaries have become tired, as they have not won a single convert despite pouring in massive amounts of money for conversion. Educated Hindus see Christ as a good man who has some good teachings, many of our relatives also have a Christmas tree and give presents even there, that is how it is, it has become fashionable to do so. But just believing in Christ and rejecting their own religion as a Christian is something they are unlikely to do.
So the tribals and others are usually prey for missionaries. I have noticed, however, even amongst Christian converts, caste consciousness does not seem to go away, even as Christians, however, just as you see caste consciousness even amongst Muslims. I think it is best that people just be left alone so they are absorbed into the native fold gradually into one of the native religions. We have no problems accepting Christ and the good aspects of his teachings, many Hindus I know have Christmas trees for their children during the holidays and give presents because Christmas is celebrated in the US, and they do not want their children to be alienated from the mainstream culture. And as I said, even in India, it has become almost fashionable to have a tree and give presents during this time amongst some people! So Hindus are open people in this respect. They just dislike the exclusivity in a religion, that is all, for religion is a matter of your culture as well and your civilizational heritage, not just a lifestyle change!
Classical civilization ended in India after the Muslim invasions, India absorbed everyone, with the exception of Islam which cannot co-exist with another religion. The Rajput princes fought bravely; India was prosperous and self-contained, and I think Indians could not really understand these invaders, they were also smug about the outside world as there was prospertiy in India then and life was mild and benign. The weather was mild and you have all year agriculture unlike in Europe. I think Indians could not really understand the Moslem invaders; they introduced the concept of total warfare, Indians had codes of war amongst themselves such as not harming women and children and not fighting after the dark, the Muslim invaders had no such laws. After the NorthWest fell is when India fell, the Rajputs continue to fight, but it is of no avail. Also the division of people into castes prevented all people from fighting, so when the fighting castes could no longer fight, India fell completely. A nation does not have a chance unless all the men are mobilized to fight in the event of war, as history shows. Also being prosperous, Indians had no need to expand in terms of colonies, and Indian culture is absorbed in Indo-China gradually through assimilation not by forcing it upon others. After defeat, the culture is preserved by families who refuse conversion even though the State is controlled by people of a different religion.
I think Indians just could never understand the nature of Islam and how Islam operates, that was the biggest reason for defeat. Even today, Hindus have a tough time understanding how aggressive monotheistic religions operate.
As for India, India just needs a tough person in command who has the national interest at heart, he would have a lot of deadwood to remove that has accumulated since independence…It would take at least about fifteen years of a tough government at the center to achieve any visible results. The BJP government had initiated many reforms such as building infrastructure, linking of all the rivers, doing away with archaic laws, reforming the bureaucracy and so on in the five years that it ruled, and Indians for the first time began to have some optimism during its rule. It was this government that opened itself to the West. Now all that has been reversed, the government believes in giving handouts instead of building anything, and it has mastered the art of winning the votes of illiterate people, making them believe that it works for them, when the opposite is true, it wants to make them forever dependent on it through handouts and other failed schemes, so instead of reforming education, you have affirmative action schemes at all levels and so on. People, however, are gradually waking up…But I think the damage done by the Congress is just too great since independence, look at the fourfold increase in population for instance due to lack of social planning after independence, this alone is enough to permanently cripple the country. I do believe that a great deal of human misery coming from lack of social plannig is avoidable…One has to understand the growth is coming from the people and from the private sector, the government actually impedes growth in every possible way. Also one result of the rule of Congress has been the complete dominance in India by leftist ideologies. It is so entrenched and such a monolith that hardly anyone can oppose it, it controls the education (why Indians are not taught their history at schools, but only whitewash), it controls the media (most English media is foreign funded), and it is succeeding in deracinating the young generation gradually…

By: Perennial

Perennial — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 08:54:49 +0000

NOT intending!

By: Perennial

Perennial — Tue, 28 Dec 2010 08:54:26 +0000

I am confused, Matt, did I address something you said? If so it was not intended, as I was addressing only Mrs. Kadambari. I was intending to address any of your comments.

By: Matt

Matt — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 22:27:55 +0000

Perennial,

My comment on Europeanization was about the adaptation of elements of pre-Christian Europe into the Western Church (which is historically true). I personally don’t see how this would be an error since this marriage of the traditional elements in Christianity and the non-Christian traditional elements still alive in Europe led to the Medieval era…the last traditional civilization in the west.

By: Perennial

Perennial — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 20:55:50 +0000

There is only one area where I think we may not see eye to eye still, regarding religion. For reference purposes, I do not recognize protestant missionaries when I speak of Christians, only Roman Catholic & Eastern Orthodox. I know in the past conversion to at least Roman Catholicism meant Europeanization (an error, in my opinion) unless you converted to the Eastern Rite. Is this still common today? Do you believe converting to the Christian Faith necessitates abandoning your Indian identity? Does the Christian East offer an alternate position?

Also, I have my own evaluation of India. What do you think if India had been organized like the Holy Roman Empire, a federation of princely states with a nominal (non-British!) emperor, like perhaps the Prince of Hydrabad, or even an elective monarch? Then each region could establish it’s own cultural miliue and not be dictated to from Delhi. This would also to more appropriate policy, I would think, to the missionary question, since more open areas could permit it, and those more opposed could deny it. What do you think?

I am not aware of anything like your statment regarding America. Ethical questions, even relgiously motivated, are often addressed, but religious ones are not. In fact, our Constitution expressly forbids relgious evaluations. I still think you are avoiding ascribing any “short-comings” (as if defending your religion and culture were a shortcoming!) to Hindus, even on an individual level, but such it is. I find it hard to believe no Hindu has ever been anti-Christian.

By: kadambari

kadambari — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 17:22:48 +0000

@Perennial
above
“were to say the the different regions in Italy…”
Also I have no ill will towards Muslims, I realize that countries like Pakistan have remained the same since independence and are unlikely to change. Wishing the government of India to treat everyone fairly and stop vote bank politics, is different from having a grudge towards any community. It is not Muslims as individuals that are problemmatic, when your culture sends you to be educated at Madrassas and have hostily towards the mainstream culture, you just become a product of that.
In the West, even if people do not all agree upon Christianity or are staunch Christians, there are laws which are binding on all communities. This is not the case for India. Nationalism in India just means wishing to bring everyone under the same laws, no exception for any community…it is not based on anger towards certain communities as is generally reported in the West, but trying to gradually assimilate everyone. The States which are doing well are benefiting all communities, regardless of religion.

By: kadambari

kadambari — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 14:01:03 +0000

Perennnial,
I mostly seem to agree with you. Christianity is the basis of the West, and that is just how it is, and it has every right to want to stay that way. However, no religion has the right to destroy the religion of others, which often happens in our areas with aggressive religions. As for Christian persecution, there are many tribals in India. Some have been drawn to the native religions, some have been lured by missionaires. You see infighting between them. Tribals fighting tribals is not the same as Hindus persecuting Christians. This is my take on the matter. We are uncomfortable with the idea of exclusive religions, which is why in a place like India, you see the native religions getting along mostly, but the Abrahamic religions often cause problems due to their aggressiveness and agressive proselytizng. However, unlike China, India does not persecute Christians, a Roman Catholic with no allegiance to the native religions actually leads a major party, would this be possible anywhere else except India? In no other country would this happen except India. The first thing people check of their Governors in America is their religion here and rightly so, why should Christians wish to be governed by non-Christians? But in India, politicians do not even have to disclose their religion, is this fair? Christmas is a major holiday in India, even though less than 2% of the people are Christians. So one cannot claim Hindus are against Christians.
Considering aggressive missionary work in India, and considering that missionaries are often teaching the tribals to dislike the native religion and culture, I do not think they are having a good impact overall. There is a difference between wanting to help people pure and simple and pushing your religion on people in far away places to aggrandize your religion. The tribals become cut off from the native culture and land, adopting a culture not their own, and you see the highest crime and drug rates amongst them. I believe all peoples should respect the traditions of the land in which they reside, including missionaries.
The foundations of India that were built after independence are very flimsy and do not reflect the wishes of the majority, but the wishes of a few people who pushed India to be the way it is. From a manageable country with the population of Russia, it has swelled as a result of lack of social planning and lack of planning according to wishes of the majority, I hope one day the government is accountable to millions of people there who are suffering greatly because of its misguided policies since independence. If a country can grow 8% without the government doing anything, then a government reflecting India’s real needs and wishes of the majority can push it to grow easily at double digits.
Again, regarding Islam, HIndus allowed Muslims in their country due to Gandhi and Nehru even though the country was partitioned on the basis of religion. Hindus realize they have been gradually exterminated in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh, where there is no Hindu minority. In India, their numbers have grown and they have their own civil laws, and they are not brought under the same laws as everyone else because of the shortsightedness of the government which wishes to cash in on their votes to stay in power. This is a recipe for problems in the future. Everyone has to be brought under the same civil codes, so India is not really a “secular” state, but artificially so in reality due to the politics of the government.
Again India cannot be called a democracy with the way things are run, and even though it is growing, someone who knows the gound realities will understand that most of what is written in the media about it has often little bearing on reality unless the reporter has lived there long enough to understand the country. And India’s own mainstream journalists are deracintated people who have no sympathy for their culture and are shallow leftists, you see their opinions relected in the Western press about India…which is why most intelligent Indians do not bother reading the mainstream English newspapers there, and these newspapers are shamefully misinforming many gullible youngsters…
As for regional diversity is concerned, India is very diverse. When I go to the South of India, the place can even seem like a completely foreign country in terms of manners, language of the people and even ethnicity, however, there is something I recognize because people follow the same religion, and have an an overall outlook that is shaped by the native religion, so that even though the ethnicity, language, the cultural subtleties might be different, you still feel at home there, and you still feel that it is an extention of the larger Hindu civilization…I brought in the example of Italy in that would Italians not get angry if people were not say the different regions in Italy are not “European” culturally, similary Indians get angry when leftists claim that just because they were divided into different countries before independence, there was no culture belonging to the land, which is a false claim. Anyone who really understands India will understand that the genius of India is Hinduism and the religions that spring from it (Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainsim), and that secularism there is a colonial hangover…

By: kadambari

kadambari — Mon, 27 Dec 2010 13:41:55 +0000

Perennnial,
I mostly seem to agree with you. Christianity is the basis of the West, and that is just how it is. However, no religion has the right to destroy the religion of others, which often happens in our areas with aggressive religions. As for Christian persecution, there are many tribals in India. Some have been drawn to the native religions, some have been lured by missionaires. You see infighting between them. Tribals fighting tribals is not the same as Hindus persecuting Christians. This is my take on the matter. We are uncomfortable with the idea of exclusive religions, which is why in a place like India, you see the native religions getting along mostly, but the Abrahamic religions often cause problems due to their aggressiveness and agressive proselytizng. However, unlike China, India does not persecute Christians, a Roman Catholic with no allegiance to the native religions actually leads a major party, would this be possible anywhere else except India? In no other country would this happen except India. The first thing people check of their Governors in America is their religion here and rightly so, why should Christians wish to be governed by non-Christians? But in India, politicians do not even have to disclose their relition, is this fair?
So considering aggressive missionary work in India, and considering that missionaries are often teaching the tribals to dislike the native religion and culture, I do not think they are having a good impact overall. There is a difference between wanting to help people pure and simple and pushing your religion on people in far away places to aggrandize your religion. The tribals become cut off from the native culture, going into a culture not their own in their own lands, and you see the highest crime and drug rates amongst them. I believe all peoples should respect the traditions of the land in which they reside, including missionaries.
The foundations of India that were built after independence is very flimsy and do not reflect the wishes of the majority, but the wishes of a few people who pushed India to be the way it is. From a manageable country with the population of Russia, it has swelled as a result of lack of social planning and lack of planning according to wishes of the majority, I hope one day the government one day is accountable to millions of people there who are suffering because of its misguided policies since independence. If a country can grow 8% without the government doing anything, then a government reflecting India’s real needs and wishes of the majority can push it to grow easily at double digits.
Again, regarding Islam, HIndus allowed welcomed Muslims in their country, while they realize they are wiped out in places like Pakistan and Bangladesh, where there is no Hindu minority. In India, their numbers have grown and they have their own civil laws, and they are not brought under the same laws as everyone elese because the government wishes to cash in on their votes. This is a recipe for problems in the future.
Again India cannot be called a democracy with the way things are run, and even though it is growing, someone who knows the gound realities will understand that most of what is written in the media about it has often little bearing on reality unless the reporter has lived there long enough to understand the country. And India’s own mainstream journalists are deracintated people who have no sympathy for their culture and are shallow leftists, you see their opinions relected in the Western press about India…which is why most intelligent people do not bother reading the mainstream English newspapers there…
As for regional diversity is concerned, India is very diverse. When I go to the South of India, the place can even seem like a completely foreign country in terms of manners and language of the people and even ethnicity, however, there is something I recognize because people follow the same religion, and have an an overall outlook that is shaped by the native religion, so that even though the ethnicity, language, the cultural subtleties might be different, you still feel at home there, and you still feel that it is an extention of the larger Hindu civilization…I brought in the example of Italy in that would Italians not get angry if people were not say the different regions in Italy are not “European” culturally, similary Indians get angry when someone days that just because they were divided into different countries before independence, there was no culture belonging to the land, which is a false claim, and one made by leftists. Anyone who really understands India will understand that the genius of India is Hinduism and the religions that spring from it (Sikhism, Buddhism, Jainsim), and that secularism there is a colonial hangover…